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Post by wardemonx327 on Nov 21, 2015 20:43:27 GMT -6
First, a few things about this expansion: 1. The original MtG game uses individual cards to represent each creature on the battlefield. There is a mechanic where you can summon Token Creatures, represented by a token of your choosing, such as a coin, pebble, cigarette, what have you. Token Creatures are relatively weak but more often than not, serve a specific purpose – usually by sacrificing them: destroying them to activate an ability. I have tried to recreate them here and present a token army card for each color along with some spells to help spawn some fodder. I tried to word it to cover all circumstances involving the card itself, summoning and what happens when token creatures die or are returned to your reserve. It’s a bit wordy, unfortunately. Additionally, I decided to make the Token Creatures a Common Squad with a cost of 0, since you never actually summon a squad of Token Creatures. This way, enchantments targeting unique squads remain as such. 2. Most people are creating new Planeswalkers, etc… I’ll leave those creations for another time, as I’m not that familiar with all of them. I’d like to know how they work before I start throwing together PWs… If and when I do, I’ll release them with their own squad creatures to use along with spells they are known for. Just seems…. Right. 3. I’ve included a Hero creature for each color. Some are Medium in size and only take up one hex. I’ve got to clarify how I think each size class will be represented in the game. Medium creatures only take up one (two in the case of Blazing Firecats) space(s). A Large creature should take up 3 spaces. This could be arranged in a triangle formation or as a line. Judging by the size of the Eldrazi Ruiner in the upcoming expansion, a Huge creature will take up 7 spaces on the battlefield. So, one space and all 6 spaces surrounding that space. Why talk about spaces? Well… 4. I’ve selected some Reaper miniatures you can purchase and paint for use with the new hero and token creatures. You can always use whatever you want, but it would definitely LOOK cooler with figures, instead of pebbles. Without further ado, here is my *unofficial* Heroes & Tokens expansion: (Army Cards) See THIS thread for the accompanying spells. MORE Zombies! I didn't add an ability since they get boosted by Liliana's Zombie anyway. Zombie Token Figures: ZombiesAnd a nasty Hero, to boot, featuring the Deathtouch ability. Figure: HERE Common Creature type for in MTG were Weirds. Featuring a new ability, DEFENDER - make your own walls. Figure: HEREAnd a formative Hero to help Jace further impede his opponent's ability to cast spells. At the same time, he gives you a peek at your opponent's hands. You should put this guy on a 3-hex space. Figure: HERE Saprolings, the classic and probably most used token in MTG. Featuring a new ability, Shroud. Figure: HERE was known for BIG creatures. This guy is as big as they get. Plus, he boosts Saprolings and other Tree folk and spawns a few Saprolings as a bonus for summoning! This guy will take up 7 spaces. Figure: HERE Known for Fire, Perfect for Dragons! Big & Small! Figure: HEREAnd a BIG NASTY Dragon... when he goes, he takes most of the battlefield with him... He's HUGE - so 7 hexes. Paint him like his picture - they match. Figure: HERE Classic Tokens are Spirits. Providing more healing to Gideon. Figure: HEREAnd some divine assistance: Probably the most recognizable MTG card. Figure: HEREOpen to constructive criticism! Be SURE to check out the accompanying spells for this expansion HERE!
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Memnarch
Apprentice
The Mirari
Posts: 58
Mana: Colorless
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Post by Memnarch on Nov 22, 2015 3:11:17 GMT -6
Hi, first of all: great work! I loved token creatures in Magic the Gathering (especially Myr, you really should have made some colourless Myr tokens ). Compared to Chandra’s Flamewing Phoenixes all the token creatures seem very strong. Especially when you think of the number of tokens you can control (Endless Ranks of the Dead !). So maybe you should at least reduce life of the tokens to 1 (maybe attack and defense too). The big number of tokens you can control leads to the next problem: if you choose their army card, you can play with maybe 10 creatures in one turn! Seems OP. (one good thing is that you can’t enchant them with cards of the base game, because they are common creatures). Maybe there should be a limit of maximum token creatures you can control, or you can use in one turn. I like the “Token Army”-text on each card. Here some other things you may should think of again: Saproling The Shroud-ability of them seems too strong. Maybe change it to the original wording from MtG: “A creature with shroud can't be the target of spells or abilities.“ So can’t be the target of ANY spells of abilities. Dragon If you use Sharkan Vol, Dragonspeaker of TechToasters expansion it is OP (he gets +1 & +1 for each dragon within 6 spaces). But that’s probably Shrakans problem. Ryusei, the Falling Star It’s basically: Destroy all squad creatures without flying. Hmmm, very strong. Maybe add a range to this ability. Spirit How can you “destroy” a friendly creature? I think you should use sacrifice instead of destroy. Just some comments to two of the spells: Singularity “… Then each player may summon a Creature Token.” Which Creature Token? Can I summon a Token Creature which is not matching to the colour of my planeswalker? Claws of Valakut I like the first strike ability, but again it seems OP if you can play with 5 or 10 Tokens in your turn. Maybe the defender should also roll 1 die. If not it is like “I just walk around a bit and kill my enemies without even attacking.” Shure you have to roll a sword to deal damage, but without the chance of defending it may be OP.
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Post by Targanth on Nov 22, 2015 11:28:54 GMT -6
- "A Large creatures should take up 3 spaces." - In Heroscape, there were some very large creatures, including dragons. None of the Heroscape figures had bases larger than 2 spaces (like the Firecats), even though some of them were height of more than 10. Many of them overlapped into adjacent hexes, making some adjacent hexes blocked - other figures simply could not fit in them. A figure with a base larger than 2 hexes will cause movement problems. I don't have any idea what has been done for the Eldrazi creature in the expansion if it really does have a base of 7 hexes. What are some of the movement problems? Attempting to gain height is one of the problems. A Firecat can never move up onto a single hex space, because a figure must always sit flat on the board. This could also be a problem when encountering water spaces on the board, in theory a Firecat should not sit with one end of the figure in the water and the end on a land space. Placing them flat on the board. A figure must always end its turn sitting flat. Imagine a set of hexes where the top is two levels up from the board, and there is a 1 hex space that acts as a step to get to the top. A Firecat starting adjacent to the step requires 5 movement just to climb up and be able to be placed flat on the top. Glyphs. A figure must always stop movement when reaching a glyph. It would be very possible to place glyphs such that a figure with a larger base would be unable to ever occupy a space with that glyph. Moving between obstacles. In Heroscape a non-flying figure may not move across a space that it could not be placed upon. I am in favor of larger figures. Just because a figure is large does not mean that it must occupy a lot of hexes. Here are a few examples These trees are 10 hexes high. The figure is taller and only takes up 2 hexes Here are three dragons, all using only two hexes It is hard to see the bases, but these guys are big. Moving a three hex based figure would require a whole additional set of rules for movement. I'm not saying that it can;t be done, but if the larger base were to limit the play-ability of a figure, it might mot be worth it.
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Post by bluecloud2k2 on Nov 22, 2015 12:28:14 GMT -6
Question: What's the limit on Tokens in a Squad? Because if you activate the Tokens Unit Card and you manage to somehow accumulate 20 token creatures, how many of those tokens get to act?
Also, If the Game reaches the Turn Limit, how do you point-cost tokens?
I can't see this mechanic working well...
I think there should be a limit on Tokens per squad, like 4 at the most. Not that I think the token generation Mechanic works that well for this game.
Maybe look at the Eldrazi Spawn rules for the BfZ Expansion?
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Post by Targanth on Nov 22, 2015 19:57:59 GMT -6
These cards are interesting, and now I better understand Token Creatures.
I think line of sight will still be troublesome. The wording is in place for determining if the Token Creature has line of sight. What about Line of Sight when an opponent is attacking a figure trying to hide behind a number of Token Creatures - I only have one PW to use as a proxy.
An Illusion Token blocks line of sight. Is that like placing a pillar of hex pieces on the space? Again I am trying to decide if other figures behind it will be visible for enemy attack.
It does seem like the board could get overrun with Token Creatures. Adding 3 or 5 or 6 or at a time, being summoned by a Hero could clog the board up in a hurry.
Does a Token Creature get to make a leaving engagement attack if any enemy unit moves away from it?
Do Token Creatures count a Creatures for the purpose of spells that count the number of creatures on the board (Weird Legion) ?
You mention that Token Creatures are relatively weak - however they are 2 life and most of the unique squad figures are only 2 life. They might not do much damage but they are not easy to clear of the board.
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Memnarch
Apprentice
The Mirari
Posts: 58
Mana: Colorless
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Post by Memnarch on Nov 23, 2015 6:02:16 GMT -6
Just an idea to weaken the token creatures: 0 , 1 life, 1 or 2 And they could have a ability like: "While beeing attacked, if a figure would assign enough damage to destroy this creature, the owner of the attacking creature may assign the rest of the damage to any number of token creatures adjacent to this creature." This would allow to easily kill a big number of token creatures, if they are adjecent to each other. So getting surrounded from token creatures would not really be a problem. And this maybe allows a greater number of token creatures on the battlefield.
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Post by wardemonx327 on Nov 23, 2015 10:58:25 GMT -6
Hi, first of all: great work! I loved token creatures in Magic the Gathering (especially Myr, you really should have made some colourless Myr tokens ). Compared to Chandra’s Flamewing Phoenixes all the token creatures seem very strong. Especially when you think of the number of tokens you can control (Endless Ranks of the Dead !). So maybe you should at least reduce life of the tokens to 1 (maybe attack and defense too). The big number of tokens you can control leads to the next problem: if you choose their army card, you can play with maybe 10 creatures in one turn! Seems OP. (one good thing is that you can’t enchant them with cards of the base game, because they are common creatures). Maybe there should be a limit of maximum token creatures you can control, or you can use in one turn. I like the “Token Army”-text on each card. Here some other things you may should think of again: Saproling The Shroud-ability of them seems too strong. Maybe change it to the original wording from MtG: “A creature with shroud can't be the target of spells or abilities.“ So can’t be the target of ANY spells of abilities. Dragon If you use Sharkan Vol, Dragonspeaker of TechToasters expansion it is OP (he gets +1 & +1 for each dragon within 6 spaces). But that’s probably Shrakans problem. Ryusei, the Falling Star It’s basically: Destroy all squad creatures without flying. Hmmm, very strong. Maybe add a range to this ability. Spirit How can you “destroy” a friendly creature? I think you should use sacrifice instead of destroy. Just some comments to two of the spells: Singularity “… Then each player may summon a Creature Token.” Which Creature Token? Can I summon a Token Creature which is not matching to the colour of my planeswalker? Claws of Valakut I like the first strike ability, but again it seems OP if you can play with 5 or 10 Tokens in your turn. Maybe the defender should also roll 1 die. If not it is like “I just walk around a bit and kill my enemies without even attacking.” Shure you have to roll a sword to deal damage, but without the chance of defending it may be OP. I'll reduce their stats in the next update. I tried to go on a 15 point base system, since the regular squad creatures use around 20 points. As for your other suggestions: Saprolings - I thought about that but wanted to use at least one enchantment with . Hexproof sounded a little off, so I changed the name to Shroud. This was intentional. Dragons - I didn't make that planeswalker. Care should be taken when mixing with other people's work. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to playtest my own creations alongside everyone else's. Ryusei - 6 or 8 spaces is what this may evolve into. Singularity - Each player summons their own token creature. Need to find a way to word that better, I guess. Claws - if the rules are followed, you end up moving all your figures one at a time, then you enter the combat phase and declare your attacks for each figure in that squad. so, if you move up to a creature and kill it with first strike, if there isn't another target in range, it pretty much ends that figure's turn. If this becomes OP with the tokens, I may just change it to Enchant Unique Squad. Let's try it out and give me feedback. Thanks for the compliment/suggestions!
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Post by wardemonx327 on Nov 23, 2015 11:00:22 GMT -6
- "A Large creatures should take up 3 spaces." - In Heroscape, there were some very large creatures, including dragons. None of the Heroscape figures had bases larger than 2 spaces (like the Firecats), even though some of them were height of more than 10. Many of them overlapped into adjacent hexes, making some adjacent hexes blocked - other figures simply could not fit in them. A figure with a base larger than 2 hexes will cause movement problems. I don't have any idea what has been done for the Eldrazi creature in the expansion if it really does have a base of 7 hexes. What are some of the movement problems? Attempting to gain height is one of the problems. A Firecat can never move up onto a single hex space, because a figure must always sit flat on the board. This could also be a problem when encountering water spaces on the board, in theory a Firecat should not sit with one end of the figure in the water and the end on a land space. Placing them flat on the board. A figure must always end its turn sitting flat. Imagine a set of hexes where the top is two levels up from the board, and there is a 1 hex space that acts as a step to get to the top. A Firecat starting adjacent to the step requires 5 movement just to climb up and be able to be placed flat on the top. Glyphs. A figure must always stop movement when reaching a glyph. It would be very possible to place glyphs such that a figure with a larger base would be unable to ever occupy a space with that glyph. Moving between obstacles. In Heroscape a non-flying figure may not move across a space that it could not be placed upon. I am in favor of larger figures. Just because a figure is large does not mean that it must occupy a lot of hexes. Here are a few examples These trees are 10 hexes high. The figure is taller and only takes up 2 hexes Here are three dragons, all using only two hexes It is hard to see the bases, but these guys are big. Moving a three hex based figure would require a whole additional set of rules for movement. I'm not saying that it can;t be done, but if the larger base were to limit the play-ability of a figure, it might mot be worth it. Duly noted. I had not played Heroscape. I took a closer look at a better picture of the upcoming expansion and it seems Hasbro will remain true to their creature spaces. The Ruiner uses a 2 hex base as you pointed out. Thanks for drawing my attention to this. I will update the information soon!
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Post by wardemonx327 on Nov 23, 2015 11:07:48 GMT -6
These cards are interesting, and now I better understand Token Creatures. I think line of sight will still be troublesome. The wording is in place for determining if the Token Creature has line of sight. What about Line of Sight when an opponent is attacking a figure trying to hide behind a number of Token Creatures - I only have one PW to use as a proxy. An Illusion Token blocks line of sight. Is that like placing a pillar of hex pieces on the space? Again I am trying to decide if other figures behind it will be visible for enemy attack. It does seem like the board could get overrun with Token Creatures. Adding 3 or 5 or 6 or at a time, being summoned by a Hero could clog the board up in a hurry. Does a Token Creature get to make a leaving engagement attack if any enemy unit moves away from it? Do Token Creatures count a Creatures for the purpose of spells that count the number of creatures on the board (Weird Legion) ? You mention that Token Creatures are relatively weak - however they are 2 life and most of the unique squad figures are only 2 life. They might not do much damage but they are not easy to clear of the board. For the line of sight, I wrote the rule figuring it would work both ways. It says "when determining Line of Sight" - i figured it was implied both when attacking/defending. Hmmm.... The defender ability was written taking a snippet out of the official rulebook when stating obstacles. Basically, I have some extra tiles so I just stack them up to the height of the figure card. replace the token and see if you can target a valid area on the defending figure. As for Token "clog" - This is why some spells/abilities in this expansion remove most if not all creature tokens from play. I'll be altering some of their stats to make them easier to dispose of. I just don't want to make it TOO easy... Maybe 1or2ATK, 1DEF, 1 Life... All creatures can take LEAs, so yes. Token creatures do so as well. Weird Legion - Yes. It's the only spell I gave to add tokens. The longer you wait, the more effective, but you can only summon a max of 6 around your PW. But, it basically builds a wall around jace. Smart versus most colors, but can blast her way through that with Fireball, etc.
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Post by wardemonx327 on Nov 23, 2015 11:13:09 GMT -6
Just an idea to weaken the token creatures: 0 , 1 life, 1 or 2 And they could have a ability like: "While beeing attacked, if a figure would assign enough damage to destroy this creature, the owner of the attacking creature may assign the rest of the damage to any number of token creatures adjacent to this creature." This would allow to easily kill a big number of token creatures, if they are adjecent to each other. So getting surrounded from token creatures would not really be a problem. And this maybe allows a greater number of token creatures on the battlefield. Token stats problem has been noted. As for the ability, that sounds like a reverse of Trample. I think I'll leave that as it is. Once the stats are more balanced, that shouldn't be a problem. The one thing I may do is leave the zombies as 2/2/2 - tokens usually were just a *tad* stronger. Since they have no other abilities, I may leave them as such - but Endless Ranks of the Dead may prompt me to do otherwise.
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Post by wardemonx327 on Nov 23, 2015 11:18:16 GMT -6
Question: What's the limit on Tokens in a Squad? Because if you activate the Tokens Unit Card and you manage to somehow accumulate 20 token creatures, how many of those tokens get to act? Also, If the Game reaches the Turn Limit, how do you point-cost tokens? I can't see this mechanic working well... I think there should be a limit on Tokens per squad, like 4 at the most. Not that I think the token generation Mechanic works that well for this game. Maybe look at the Eldrazi Spawn rules for the BfZ Expansion? The cost of the card and each unit is already on there. It's 0 points to use it in your army and 5 points for every token creature on the board. Also, there was no limit in MTG - I was aiming for this. My gaming group found that (we play to the death) if you exhausted your unique squads and your spells, you ran out of firepower right around turn 5 or 6. This is where the game expects you to tally up your points. A good strategy we've found with token play is to use them FIRST, then you can deploy your unique squads at a more effective range. Granted, it gets hectic. With revision and playtesting, we should be able to refine this mechanic. As it stands, there are spells I've included that clear a vast amount of creatures on the board... Thanks for the feedback!
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Post by Targanth on Nov 23, 2015 12:45:30 GMT -6
Weird Legion - Yes. It's the only spell I gave to add tokens. The longer you wait, the more effective, but you can only summon a max of 6 around your PW. But, it basically builds a wall around jace. Smart versus most colors, but can blast her way through that with Fireball, etc. I guess I misread a part of this. I read it that since the of the Weird Token Creature blocked line of sight, the tokens could only be attacked by an adjacent figure. I agree, if they surround Jace, Jace can not be attacked.
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Memnarch
Apprentice
The Mirari
Posts: 58
Mana: Colorless
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Post by Memnarch on Nov 25, 2015 7:56:18 GMT -6
I had 2 games to check if the tokens are OP. Short answer: yes they are. I wanted to see if a "normal" Planeswalker (without token and Heroes) is able to defeat a Planeswalker which is using your expansion. 1. Chandra + Ryusei + Dragon Token vs. Nissa + Elf Rangers + Pummelroot Elementals + standart deck Chandra summoned Ryusei => Dragon's Call + Dual Casting => 10 Dragon Token + Claws of Valakut! (I casted Dragon's Call, then moved Chandra and the used Dual Casting to summon 10 Token in 1 turn) Nissa was able to kill 3 Dragon Token, but the first strike ability of the remaining 7 Dragons and some of chandras spells (Fireball, Incinerate and Flames of Firebrand) killed the Rangers and Pummelroot Elementals very quick. 2. Chandra + Blazing Firecats + Flamewing Phoenixes + standart deck vs. Nissa + Verdoloth, the Ancient + Saproling Token Nissa summoned Verdeloth (+3 Saproling Token) => next turn Saproling Swarm + 4 Token, choosed their army card immediatly, moved to Chandra and killed her with a single attack of one Saproling because of Might of the Masses and hight advantage (12 dice!) So the "normal" Planeswalkers using the standart deck had no chance. Not only the Token creatures are too strong, but also some of the Spells are. e.g. Claws of Valakut, Might of the Masses, Flames of Firebrand. If you compare Flames of Firebrand to Incinerate, the first one is much cheaper and clearly stronger! But i realy like the idea of Token Creatures and some new Heroes and Spelles linked to Token Creatures. I hope you keep on working on your idea!
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Post by wardemonx327 on Nov 25, 2015 12:22:58 GMT -6
Question: In each scenario, what did the "normal" PW do on their turn?
Also, I didn't envision playing a "normal" PW against this update because.... well, why would you? Obviously, even with the spell expansion i did earlier alone, you should be able to crush your "normal" opponent.
Secondly, there are changes that need to be made to the tokens. I've realized they are OP and need to adjust their stats. Once done, it should feel a bit more balanced.
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Memnarch
Apprentice
The Mirari
Posts: 58
Mana: Colorless
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Post by Memnarch on Nov 26, 2015 1:32:56 GMT -6
Why should you not do this? An expansion should add new spells and squads, but it should still be balanced to the base game. The upcoming "Tears and Fears" expansion (as far as i know) will include 5 new PW with their own squads and decks. It should not be a problem to play base-PW vs. expansion-PW. This is why there are costs of army caards and spells, to keep decks of 200 points and armies of 500 pts balanced. But if your expanions are not meant to be "mixed" with the base game it's OK.
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Post by Targanth on Nov 27, 2015 19:45:08 GMT -6
I'm wondering, how does a deck with token creatures stack up to a deck without token creatures? Or were the expansions that contained token creatures only compatible with other expansions that used token creatures?
If deck with token creatures would never be allowed to compete against a non-token deck, then it would make sense that anyone fielding AotP army with token creatures would always expect to compete against a opposing token creature army. If that is the case, then there is no reason to have a balance between token armies and non-token armies.
If in MtG, token decks and non-token decks can be built that are competitive with each other, then it sets the expectation that token armies in AotP would be competitive with non-token armies. I had entered into the review of this set of cards/armies with this as my assumption.
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Post by bluecloud2k2 on Nov 27, 2015 21:22:56 GMT -6
I've personally built Token decks that would destroy any other deck my friends use that didn't have some sort of built-in crowd control. That said, spells along the lines of Echoing Truth or Echoing Ruin (if building a Myr Token Hoard deck) will very quickly put down any such resistance. But in a miniatures game, having more figures available on the battlefield often makes up for lack of overall . Like Joe Stalin said when told that American Military was better equipped and trained: "Quantity has a Quality all of its own."
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Post by wardemonx327 on Nov 30, 2015 10:07:39 GMT -6
Sorry guys, I've run into some problems in my personal life that didn't allow me to respond. I'm still tweaking these guys out and once I get my game out of my old apartment I can tinker a bit with them. Gotta find a place to live first, though. I'll keep you guys updated.
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Post by Targanth on Nov 30, 2015 20:06:25 GMT -6
I hope you get a new place quickly and that life calms down for you, wardemon.
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Post by wardemonx327 on Jan 19, 2016 9:56:27 GMT -6
I hope you get a new place quickly and that life calms down for you, wardemon. It took me a while, but I'm finally settled. I'll be able to work on all these issues a little bit this weekend. I still haven't picked up the new expansion but it's been burning a hole in the back of my mind... lol. Thanks for the concern, bud.
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